“It can be more work than you realize. There’s a fandom out there that is hopefully as rabid as you are. There are times, with network release schedules and things going on in your personal life, that the (host) is not there for the fans, and you need to be prepared for that. But if you can be there, if you can meet those demands, it can be extremely rewarding. There’s a lot of work that goes into it, but the work pays off in the engagement of the fans.” Darrell Darnell, Co-Founder – Golden Spiral Media.
Like any other medium, you’ll need passion and drive to create great content. When I started Greetings From Storybrooke, it was because I genuinely liked ABC’s Once Upon A Time and wanted to share my opinions. I made it for selfish reasons, at first.
“I podcast for myself first and foremost, because I love doing it. It helped me find my identity as a queer woman, and I’ve used it to find my voice. If I didn’t do it for me first, then I would have given up before I ever got my first comment.” Hope Mullinax, Jaig Eyes And Jedi, Geeky Girl Experience.
It is perfectly fine to create a podcast for selfish reasons. Thousands of people do it every day, and some of them find great success, but the ones that succeed all do one thing right: They care about their listeners.
What do we, as fancasters, owe to our listeners? What do they get from our shows, and what can we do to keep them coming back? To figure it out, we’ll need to mosey on down to the Café POV.
C.A.F.E.P.O.V. is an acronym that lays out the seven things we owe our listeners.
- Consistency
- Accuracy
- Friendship
- Expansion
- Play
- Objectivity
- Voice
You know, the Café POV. Remember that feeling back in college, when you’d gather around a table with a bunch of friends from class and talk about your favorite bands? Those late nights at summer camp where you’d theorize about your favorite movies with the lights out? That’s the Café POV. That feeling of connection and companionship… That feeling is what we owe our listeners.
Through the hundreds of episodes I’ve recorded, I’ve developed techniques to foster the Café POV. If you build these seven concepts into your show, you’ll form a deep connection with your listeners and create content they’ll care about.
Let’s step through these one at a time.
Consistency
“You have to feed the beast. If you do that kind of thing, if you have an audience, you have to feed them. You have to give them what they want, or give them what they need, or direct them to what they need. And you can’t let them go. You don’t ever take them for granted. Don’t expect that just because they were there for you on Friday night they’ll still be there for you on Monday morning.” – Rich Johnston, Head Writer/Founder, Bleeding Cool
Consistency is important, more so when you’re building a podcast around somebody else’s schedule. The networks generally air their shows on the same day, at the same time, every week. Movie studios announce a movie two years in advance, and almost always hit the release date. So too, should you aim to release your podcast on a consistent schedule. As Rich Johnson said, your listeners are fickle. In an age of nearly infinite entertainment options, even your biggest fans will be put off if you release your podcast covering the season finale two days or a week after they watched it. At that point, their busy fan brains are already theorizing about what comes next, or reading Alternate Universe fanfics involving a Riverdale/Pretty Little Liars/Spongebob crossover.
“I make sure to tweet and post on Facebook to let listeners know that it’s coming a little bit later than usual and most people seem okay with that. But, listeners do notice when it’s not up yet.” Rebecca Johnson, Host – Supergirl Radio
It was important to me that we release our podcasts within 28 hours of a show airing, a glacial pace compared to modern standards. It was just enough time to properly prepare and talk to your fans while they were still excited about the episode.
I get it. Life happens, and a lot of us aren’t getting paid for this. If you miss a publish date and see your schedule slipping, don’t give up. Odds are, the listeners who were excited to hear your take on the latest Olicity[2]2 drama Wednesday morning will be just as excited to hear it Thursday morning. The important thing is to acknowledge the inconsistency, let your listeners know you regret it, then take steps to ensure it never happens again.
I always offered a little “value add” if we were late. We’d either do an extra-long episode, or stick around in the chat room after we wrapped our live stream to talk with the listeners.
When you’re a podcaster, you become a routine for the people who listen to your show. You’re as important to their Wednesday as that first cup of coffee after they get out of the shower. If you aren’t there when they come looking, you’d better make damned sure you make it up to them. You’re always building a relationship with your listeners, whether you know it or not. Don’t strain that relationship without a good reason, and make it up to them when you do.
Accuracy
“Re-immersing myself in the material I’m reviewing is an important part, but the fundamental component to preparation is writing notes on the areas I’ll be analyzing. I don’t have a problem with doing analysis off the cuff, which I do every episode, but because of my tendency to ‘waffle on’ about certain topics that I have a lot of ideas (but no structured points) about, it is ideal to just write down what I’m targeting and what conclusion I’m trying to get to.” – Jamal , Host – Get In The Mecha
You can’t remember everything that happens. A network show has more than twenty episodes a season… You’re going to forget things, often, even things that happened in the episode you’re reviewing!
“Make a mistake. Call a character the wrong name, and they’ll flood into the inbox.” Kevin Bachelder, Host – Tuning Into SciFi TV
Your audience, as a collective, remembers every moment perfectly. Every line, every nuanced piece of continuity, every sliver of foreshadowing. They’ll notice when you’re wrong, and they’ll usually call you out on it.
Don’t freak out! Your listeners will forgive the occasional error, provided they hear you come into every podcast prepared to inform and entertain them. We have an entire chapter later on weekly preparation, so it’s a pretty big deal. A solid “Show Doc” will up your accuracy, augment your faulty memory, and set you apart from the majority of new podcasters who ramble and fall down rabbit holes and ‘waffle on’ about everything but the show they promised their listeners they’d discuss.
“I’m very upfront about my faulty memory and I rely on (my co-host, Rebecca) to help me out, as she’s the organized one in our duo. But anytime a listener writes in to point something out, we always give that person all the props.” Morgan Glennon, Host – Supergirl Radio/Legends of Tomorrow Podcast
The reasons people listen to fancasts in the first place are to understand a story more completely, or reaffirm their own opinions, or get another perspective on something they love. If you want them to commit to a standing date with you every week, you can’t half-ass it.
Know your shit, and your audience will forgive your inevitable mistakes.
Pro Tip: Shine a spotlight on a listener when they call you out. Don’t shame them, or criticize them for correcting you. Praise them. Build them up into a community celebrity. If somebody cares enough to correct you, they must care about your podcast an awful lot. As a good host, you should elevate them and make them feel important. Your other listeners will see this, and they’ll be encouraged to contribute. Before you know it, maybe you’ll end up like us and have so much feedback you’ll have to do special episodes just to get to all of it.
Friendship
“You go to see the band that you’re friends with, you know? You go to see (your) friend that’s in the band.” – Michael Dolce , Host – Secrets of the Sire
The hardest part about meeting new friends is introducing yourself. When you host a podcast, you introduce yourself to new people every episode. Your audience listens to you, attentively, for hours a month. They probably know a lot about you already. Bare minimum, they know your personality, your sense of humor, and your general take on the subject matter. When they talk back, the conversation can get real personal, real quick. In most cases, that’s great! It means you’re attracting “ride-or-die” friends you can count on to help your show in a variety of ways.
Count on fans-turned-friends to offer up honest feedback on your podcast, an invaluable asset as you hone your craft. Since you’ve taken the time to build a genuine friendship, the criticism is always constructive and can only make your show better.
If you include listener feedback in your podcast, and you should, your listeners will make bold choices, sending e-mails in-character as Oswald Cobblepot or leaving voicemails as The Joker. This is great, and rewards the other fans who listen every week.
“Community involvement is huge in what we do. We had a Fringe finale party. I live in Oklahoma City, it’s not exactly a Mecca of the world, and in the middle of January, we had fifty people from the US and Canada come in and watch the finale with us. It’s all because of the community we established around The Fringe Podcast. We all have this passion of geeky television shows and sci-fi and really well-done TV. The community is so important to what we do. It’s the most important thing we do, really.” Darrell Darnell, Co-Founder – Golden Spiral Media
Me and Anne Marie meeting up with listeners Josh Phelps and Eric Hansen at Disney World.
Many of my listeners have been to my house, or slept on my couch, or told me how much they loved the podcast when they saw my Greetings From Storybrooke t-shirt at Disney World. They’ve confided in me, given me solid advice, and supported my other projects. When you have time, support their creative projects too. It’s always an honor when a listener asks you for feedback on their first podcast or book.
Expansion
“I wanted something live, something that could grow, something I could keep plussing with ideas, you see? The park means a lot to me in that it’s something that will never be finished. Something that I can keep developing, keep plussing and adding to. It’s alive. It will be a live, breathing thing that will need changes.” – Walt Disney
Never be satisfied with your show. Sitting down to record should never feel boring. While I’ll get into the importance of structure in a later chapter, shaking things up keeps your audience engaged. They’ll never be sure which delightful surprise you’ll spring on them next.
When we reviewed “Suicide Squad” on Legends of Gotham, we got into character.
When we started live streaming our podcasts on YouTube, it opened up tons of options for what I call “specials,” cool or interesting things you can change up each week. Recording on Halloween? Dress up in costume. Did the show you’re reviewing have a musical episode? Why don’t you sing the episode summary? Add a countdown of your favorite one-liners in the middle of the episode. Play a surprise voicemail from a cast member. Pretend an unpopular episode didn’t happen, with a wink to the audience to let them know you know you’re wrong.
We would redecorate our set for every stream. For “Legends of Gotham,” we added 25 unique set decorations, including a signed picture from Renee Montoya actress Victoria Cartagena.
Those are just some ideas, all of which we did. Feel free to steal them, but I think you’ll find more success developing your own specials. Only you know your show’s voice, and what your listeners will appreciate and tolerate. These are value-adds. Make sure, however you decide to expand your podcast, that it benefits the listener.
Play
“No one looks stupid when they’re having fun.” – Amy Poehler
In improv comedy, you create entertaining scenes by entering into “radical agreement” with your scene partner. If they say you’ve been hiking for six hours, move and act like somebody who’s been hiking for six hours. Don’t block them by bouncing around the stage, screaming that it’s only been ten minutes. Agree with what they say, then add to or expand on it. Above all else, make the other person look good, and trust that they’ll do the same for you. You’ll create a playful environment. You know, play? What you used to do out on the playground at recess? Cops and robbers? Fortnite? I can’t tell how old you are through the page.
Podcast co-hosts should enter into a covenant of radical agreement. Two people are bound to have different opinions. That’s fine. Don’t shy away from those conversations.
Disagree without being disagreeable. You might think your co-host is dead wrong about the over-saturation of the Olicity ‘ship[3]3 on Arrow, but you can argue your point without attacking theirs. Like it or not, all your co-hosts are beloved characters to your listeners. If you turn on each other, you’ll break a lot of hearts. Always make your co-hosts look good.
“Being able to respectfully disagree with someone comes down to, ‘Do I value this person?’ If you truly care about the other person, you are going to listen to what they have to say and make every effort to be thoughtful in your response. The other person will feel that and pay it back to you in kind. Don’t put the other person’s back up against the wall. Invite them to engage in (a conversation).” Rebecca Johnson, Host – Supergirl Radio
Accept their offers, even if you disagree with them. Let them know you understand their point of view, then add to or expand on it. Maybe there’s an aspect of Olicity’s relationship that makes you physically ill. Maybe you think slash fiction focusing on the Toliver[4]4 ‘ship is a bigger issue. Maybe you came up with a great Lauriver joke. Just keep playing. Keep having fun.
Don’t sink your podcast over a ‘ship.
Objectivity
“I think perfect objectivity is an unrealistic goal; fairness, however, is not.” – Michael Pollan
As discussed in the previous chapter covering Goethe’s three questions, it’s important to present your opinion in an objective way. If you have a conclusion, explain to your listeners how you arrived at that conclusion. Show them the logic behind your opinion. They’ll respect you, even if they disagree.
Voice
“Become established as the place to go to for fans. Share their fan art and ask for their thoughts. If the fans don’t want to listen, you won’t have an audience.” – Derek O’Neill, TV Podcast Industries
“Everybody wants to be somebody fancy. Even if they’re shy.” – Donald Miller
At some point, every single one of your listeners has considered starting their own podcast, if they haven’t done it already. Some people don’t have the self-confidence. Others don’t have the time, or the technical know-how.
These people are your show’s greatest assets.
If somebody cares enough about something to listen to an hour-long podcast about it, odds are they have a lot of their own opinions. Every fancaster should monitor fan reactions online. What better way to do that than to solicit them from your listeners? Give your viewers multiple ways to contribute to your show over voicemail, e-mail, social media, Tik Tok, whatever. Feature their contributions. Make them feel like a star.
“If ten people respond to anything on the internet, that is really rad. It’s like you just got ten new friends.” Justin Robert Young, Host – Who’s The Boss?
I tried to not leave any feedback out of the show, but sometimes it wasn’t possible to read every letter or play every voicemail without adding two hours to our podcast. Consider publishing a blog on your website, or create a social post to respond to a question in more detail.
“There will be episodes the listeners will pick apart, but it’s their passion, and they see no flaws. But wouldn’t you rather they be honest?” Stephanie Smith, Host – PotentialCast: A Buffy The Vampire Slayer Podcast
For the feedback you do include, maintain that same radical agreement you share with your co-host. Never shame or belittle somebody brave enough to share a piece of themselves with you and their fellow listeners, or you’ll run out of listeners quick.
Yes, there are trolls out there. Most people think trolls are your enemy, but I think of them more as fans who aren’t ready to admit it yet. See the chapter on dealing with trolls for my thoughts on how to convert them into your most committed listeners.
If you build your podcast with a Café POV, your podcast will be entertaining, sustainable, and inclusive. Your listeners will love you, your numbers will climb, and you’ll attract a community of like-minded friends. You might even get a few of them to buy you a cup of coffee.
< THE 3 RULES OF CRITICISM | BUILDING A SHOW >
- 2 Olicity refers to the relationship, between the characters Oliver and Felicity on the CW show Arrow, a huge source of controversy in the Arrow fandom and a running joke with some of my friends over at DCTV Podcasts. ↑
- 3 ‘Ship, short for romantic relationship, a term popularized in fanfiction circles. Often, discussing ‘ships involves owning a relationship between characters by labeling it as your “One True Pairing,” or OTP. “Shipping culture” in fandoms is both wonderful and toxic to fan communities. If you keep a sense of play when discussing ‘ships, your listeners should react in a positive way, even if they have another OTP. ↑
- 4 Another ‘ship from Arrow. Don’t ask me about it though. I had to look another Arrow example up. ↑